Reddness to coccyx

Hello, I need help in writing a query. Redness to coccyx is documented by nursing in skin assessment since admission (7 days so far). Stage I pressure ulcer would change the SOI/ROM of this case from 2/2 to 3/3. I need help in formulating a query for this. Thanks in advance for you help.
Dawn, RN, CCDS

Comments

  • Has WCT done an evaluation or assessment on this pt? Nursing should put in as "assessment" for them so they can substantiate further querying and use of resources. Nursing can do that here without a provider order...


    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:10 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Hello, I need help in writing a query. Redness to coccyx is documented by nursing in skin assessment since admission (7 days so far). Stage I pressure ulcer would change the SOI/ROM of this case from 2/2 to 3/3. I need help in formulating a query for this. Thanks in advance for you help.
    Dawn, RN, CCDS
    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

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    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Regional Health is an integrated health care system with the purpose of helping patients and communities live well.

    Note: The information contained in this message, including any attachments, may be privileged, confidential, or protected from disclosure under state or federal laws . If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the Sender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy all electronic or paper copies of the communication, including any attachments.
  • Nope




    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:16 AM
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Has WCT done an evaluation or assessment on this pt? Nursing should put in as "assessment" for them so they can substantiate further querying and use of resources. Nursing can do that here without a provider order...


    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:10 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Hello, I need help in writing a query. Redness to coccyx is documented by nursing in skin assessment since admission (7 days so far). Stage I pressure ulcer would change the SOI/ROM of this case from 2/2 to 3/3. I need help in formulating a query for this. Thanks in advance for you help.
    Dawn, RN, CCDS
    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Regional Health is an integrated health care system with the purpose of helping patients and communities live well.

    Note: The information contained in this message, including any attachments, may be privileged, confidential, or protected from disclosure under state or federal laws . If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the Sender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy all electronic or paper copies of the communication, including any attachments.

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    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    This message and attachment(s), if any, is intended for the sole use of the individual and/or entity
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  • Can you call up to the floor and ask the nursing staff to put in assess (surprised it wasn’t auto generated already for them to see) for WCT? That way you could how WBC stages it for supporting documentation and resources; and from there ask the provider to "provide a diagnosis related to resources used and treatment provided" .... unless the pt is already discharged?

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:18 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Nope




    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:16 AM
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Has WCT done an evaluation or assessment on this pt? Nursing should put in as "assessment" for them so they can substantiate further querying and use of resources. Nursing can do that here without a provider order...


    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:10 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Hello, I need help in writing a query. Redness to coccyx is documented by nursing in skin assessment since admission (7 days so far). Stage I pressure ulcer would change the SOI/ROM of this case from 2/2 to 3/3. I need help in formulating a query for this. Thanks in advance for you help.
    Dawn, RN, CCDS
    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Regional Health is an integrated health care system with the purpose of helping patients and communities live well.

    Note: The information contained in this message, including any attachments, may be privileged, confidential, or protected from disclosure under state or federal laws . If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the Sender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy all electronic or paper copies of the communication, including any attachments.

    ---
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    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    This message and attachment(s), if any, is intended for the sole use of the individual and/or entity of which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,confidential and prohibited from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or authorized to receive this on behalf of the addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone this message or any part thereof. If you have received this in error, please immediately advise the sender by e-mail and delete this information and all attachments from your computer and network.
    Thank you.

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    If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to
    leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
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    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923
  • WCT NOT WBC!

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:22 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Can you call up to the floor and ask the nursing staff to put in assess (surprised it wasn’t auto generated already for them to see) for WCT? That way you could how WBC stages it for supporting documentation and resources; and from there ask the provider to "provide a diagnosis related to resources used and treatment provided" .... unless the pt is already discharged?

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:18 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Nope




    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:16 AM
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Has WCT done an evaluation or assessment on this pt? Nursing should put in as "assessment" for them so they can substantiate further querying and use of resources. Nursing can do that here without a provider order...


    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:10 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Hello, I need help in writing a query. Redness to coccyx is documented by nursing in skin assessment since admission (7 days so far). Stage I pressure ulcer would change the SOI/ROM of this case from 2/2 to 3/3. I need help in formulating a query for this. Thanks in advance for you help.
    Dawn, RN, CCDS
    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Regional Health is an integrated health care system with the purpose of helping patients and communities live well.

    Note: The information contained in this message, including any attachments, may be privileged, confidential, or protected from disclosure under state or federal laws . If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the Sender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy all electronic or paper copies of the communication, including any attachments.

    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: dvitalone@comhs.org If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12121342.2ffcc42f203494f36544e53ea82f91d7@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    This message and attachment(s), if any, is intended for the sole use of the individual and/or entity of which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,confidential and prohibited from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or authorized to receive this on behalf of the addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone this message or any part thereof. If you have received this in error, please immediately advise the sender by e-mail and delete this information and all attachments from your computer and network.
    Thank you.

    ---
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    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
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    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923
  • Yes..if WC RN can stage, then a CDI can ask the MD to 'review the WC notes and render a diagnosis based on the RN Assessment'.



    Paul Evans, RHIA, CCS, CCS-P, CCDS
     
    Manager, Regional Clinical Documentation & Coding Integrity
    Sutter West Bay
    633 Folsom St., 7th Floor, Office 7-044
    San Francisco, CA 94107
    Cell:  415.412.9421

    evanspx@sutterhealth.org



    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 9:22 AM
    To: Evans, Paul
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Can you call up to the floor and ask the nursing staff to put in assess (surprised it wasn’t auto generated already for them to see) for WCT? That way you could how WBC stages it for supporting documentation and resources; and from there ask the provider to "provide a diagnosis related to resources used and treatment provided" .... unless the pt is already discharged?

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:18 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Nope




    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:16 AM
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Has WCT done an evaluation or assessment on this pt? Nursing should put in as "assessment" for them so they can substantiate further querying and use of resources. Nursing can do that here without a provider order...


    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:10 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Hello, I need help in writing a query. Redness to coccyx is documented by nursing in skin assessment since admission (7 days so far). Stage I pressure ulcer would change the SOI/ROM of this case from 2/2 to 3/3. I need help in formulating a query for this. Thanks in advance for you help.
    Dawn, RN, CCDS
    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Regional Health is an integrated health care system with the purpose of helping patients and communities live well.

    Note: The information contained in this message, including any attachments, may be privileged, confidential, or protected from disclosure under state or federal laws . If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the Sender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy all electronic or paper copies of the communication, including any attachments.

    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: dvitalone@comhs.org If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12121342.2ffcc42f203494f36544e53ea82f91d7@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    This message and attachment(s), if any, is intended for the sole use of the individual and/or entity of which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,confidential and prohibited from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or authorized to receive this on behalf of the addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone this message or any part thereof. If you have received this in error, please immediately advise the sender by e-mail and delete this information and all attachments from your computer and network.
    Thank you.

    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: evanspx@sutterhealth.org If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940161.4b24e9352adc7dfa247d8332246d4e2a@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923
  • RIGHT PAUL! EXACTLY

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:43 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Yes..if WC RN can stage, then a CDI can ask the MD to 'review the WC notes and render a diagnosis based on the RN Assessment'.



    Paul Evans, RHIA, CCS, CCS-P, CCDS
     
    Manager, Regional Clinical Documentation & Coding Integrity Sutter West Bay
    633 Folsom St., 7th Floor, Office 7-044 San Francisco, CA 94107
    Cell:  415.412.9421

    evanspx@sutterhealth.org



    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 9:22 AM
    To: Evans, Paul
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Can you call up to the floor and ask the nursing staff to put in assess (surprised it wasn’t auto generated already for them to see) for WCT? That way you could how WBC stages it for supporting documentation and resources; and from there ask the provider to "provide a diagnosis related to resources used and treatment provided" .... unless the pt is already discharged?

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:18 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Nope




    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:16 AM
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Has WCT done an evaluation or assessment on this pt? Nursing should put in as "assessment" for them so they can substantiate further querying and use of resources. Nursing can do that here without a provider order...


    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:10 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Hello, I need help in writing a query. Redness to coccyx is documented by nursing in skin assessment since admission (7 days so far). Stage I pressure ulcer would change the SOI/ROM of this case from 2/2 to 3/3. I need help in formulating a query for this. Thanks in advance for you help.
    Dawn, RN, CCDS
    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Regional Health is an integrated health care system with the purpose of helping patients and communities live well.

    Note: The information contained in this message, including any attachments, may be privileged, confidential, or protected from disclosure under state or federal laws . If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the Sender immediately by a "reply to sender only" message and destroy all electronic or paper copies of the communication, including any attachments.

    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: dvitalone@comhs.org If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12121342.2ffcc42f203494f36544e53ea82f91d7@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    This message and attachment(s), if any, is intended for the sole use of the individual and/or entity of which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,confidential and prohibited from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or authorized to receive this on behalf of the addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone this message or any part thereof. If you have received this in error, please immediately advise the sender by e-mail and delete this information and all attachments from your computer and network.
    Thank you.

    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: evanspx@sutterhealth.org If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940161.4b24e9352adc7dfa247d8332246d4e2a@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
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    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923
  • Yes I know but in the meantime I want to place a query. All I am asking is how would you word it without being leading



    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:44 AM

    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    RIGHT PAUL! EXACTLY

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:43 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Yes..if WC RN can stage, then a CDI can ask the MD to 'review the WC notes and render a diagnosis based on the RN Assessment'.



    Paul Evans, RHIA, CCS, CCS-P, CCDS
     
    Manager, Regional Clinical Documentation & Coding Integrity Sutter West Bay
    633 Folsom St., 7th Floor, Office 7-044 San Francisco, CA 94107
    Cell:  415.412.9421

    evanspx@sutterhealth.org



    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 9:22 AM
    To: Evans, Paul
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Can you call up to the floor and ask the nursing staff to put in assess (surprised it wasn’t auto generated already for them to see) for WCT? That way you could how WBC stages it for supporting documentation and resources; and from there ask the provider to "provide a diagnosis related to resources used and treatment provided" .... unless the pt is already discharged?

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:18 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Nope




    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:16 AM
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Has WCT done an evaluation or assessment on this pt? Nursing should put in as "assessment" for them so they can substantiate further querying and use of resources. Nursing can do that here without a provider order...


    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:10 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Hello, I need help in writing a query. Redness to coccyx is documented by nursing in skin assessment since admission (7 days so far). Stage I pressure ulcer would change the SOI/ROM of this case from 2/2 to 3/3. I need help in formulating a query for this. Thanks in advance for you help.
    Dawn, RN, CCDS
    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: jbovard@regionalhealth.com If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12940160.55ea2c13b419eb7deb7e5125c36e4234@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Regional Health is an integrated health care system with the purpose of helping patients and communities live well.

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  • Our practice is we usually only query if nursing/wound care has already called it a pressure ulcer with the stage. As they are the ones seeing the skin, they can determine if the redness is blanchable or not blanchable. If you only have documented redness to the coccyx by nursing, you do not know if it's IAD, excoriation, fungal rash, blanchable, or non-blanchable/stage I PU. I would recommend waiting for wound care to see the patient, especially since that diagnosis has an impact on SOI/ROM -- even more so if the payor is APR.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:50 PM
    To: Simone, Sarah
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Yes I know but in the meantime I want to place a query. All I am asking is how would you word it without being leading



    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:44 AM

    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    RIGHT PAUL! EXACTLY

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:43 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Yes..if WC RN can stage, then a CDI can ask the MD to 'review the WC notes and render a diagnosis based on the RN Assessment'.



    Paul Evans, RHIA, CCS, CCS-P, CCDS

    Manager, Regional Clinical Documentation & Coding Integrity Sutter West Bay
    633 Folsom St., 7th Floor, Office 7-044 San Francisco, CA 94107
    Cell: 415.412.9421

    evanspx@sutterhealth.org



    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 9:22 AM
    To: Evans, Paul
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Can you call up to the floor and ask the nursing staff to put in assess (surprised it wasn’t auto generated already for them to see) for WCT? That way you could how WBC stages it for supporting documentation and resources; and from there ask the provider to "provide a diagnosis related to resources used and treatment provided" .... unless the pt is already discharged?

    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:18 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Nope




    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:16 AM
    Subject: RE: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Has WCT done an evaluation or assessment on this pt? Nursing should put in as "assessment" for them so they can substantiate further querying and use of resources. Nursing can do that here without a provider order...


    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 10:10 AM
    To: Bovard, Juli
    Subject: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Hello, I need help in writing a query. Redness to coccyx is documented by nursing in skin assessment since admission (7 days so far). Stage I pressure ulcer would change the SOI/ROM of this case from 2/2 to 3/3. I need help in formulating a query for this. Thanks in advance for you help.
    Dawn, RN, CCDS
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  • --Apple-Mail-5F883BDC-74FD-42A5-B3A1-2B2CAA708A8F
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    Risk factor:ie immobility,dependent for care
    Clinical indicator- RN admit assessment indicated red sacral area
    Treatment- turn or q 2 hours,ion w meals with assist

    Please clarify if above is consistent with:
    *Stage 1 pressure ulcer -post
    *Stage 1 pressure ulcer developed during stay
    *No evidence of pressure ulcer
    *Other
    *Unable to determine

    Sent from my iPhone

    > On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:05 AM, CDI Talk wrote:
    >
    > This message has no content.

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    Risk factor:ie immobility,dependent for careClinical indicator- RN admit assessment indicated red sacral areaTreatment- turn or q 2 hours,ion w meals with assist 
    Please clarify if above is consistent with:*Stage 1 pressure ulcer -post*Stage 1 pressure ulcer developed during stay*No evidence of pressure ulcer*Other*Unable to determine

    Sent from my iPhone
    On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:05 AM, CDI Talk <cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com> wrote:
    This message has no content.
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  • This isn’t considered leading since ulcer is not documented

    [https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRU-EgfxDFa9fzS--pfBkaCV5MlVEkmeOy8e4W_BHciawQXHPXw]
    Dawn M. Vitalone, RN, CCDS
    Clinical Documentation Improvement Specialist
    Community Hospital
    219-513-2611
    dvitalone@comhs.org
    [CCDS_pin_1inch]

    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:13 PM
    To: Dawn Vitalone
    Subject: Re: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Risk factor:ie immobility,dependent for care
    Clinical indicator- RN admit assessment indicated red sacral area
    Treatment- turn or q 2 hours,ion w meals with assist

    Please clarify if above is consistent with:
    *Stage 1 pressure ulcer -post
    *Stage 1 pressure ulcer developed during stay
    *No evidence of pressure ulcer
    *Other
    *Unable to determine

    Sent from my iPhone

    On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:05 AM, CDI Talk wrote:
    This message has no content.



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  • You will always have some debate on this subject,but when ahima stated in their position paper what leading. I don't feel this is leading. What other reasonable answer would you expect from a reddened area on the sacrum? If you can think of ANY REASONABLE choice. It seems that may be the only reasonable choice other than. There was no pressure ulcer ever which is provided.

    I'll locate that position paper and send to you.

    Ann

    Sent from my iPhone

    > On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:14 AM, CDI Talk wrote:
    >
    > This isn’t considered leading since ulcer is not documented
    >
    >
    > Dawn M. Vitalone, RN, CCDS
    > Clinical Documentation Improvement Specialist
    > Community Hospital
    > 219-513-2611
    > dvitalone@comhs.org
    >
    >
    > From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:13 PM
    > To: Dawn Vitalone
    > Subject: Re: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx
    >
    > Risk factor:ie immobility,dependent for care
    > Clinical indicator- RN admit assessment indicated red sacral area
    > Treatment- turn or q 2 hours,ion w meals with assist
    >
    > Please clarify if above is consistent with:
    > *Stage 1 pressure ulcer -post
    > *Stage 1 pressure ulcer developed during stay
    > *No evidence of pressure ulcer
    > *Other
    > *Unable to determine
    >
    > Sent from my iPhone
    >
    > On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:05 AM, CDI Talk wrote:
    >
    > This message has no content.
    >
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    You will always have some debate on this subject,but when ahima stated in their position paper what leading. I don't feel this is leading. What other reasonable answer would you expect from a reddened area on the sacrum?  If you can think of ANY REASONABLE choice. It seems that may be the only reasonable choice other than. There was no pressure ulcer ever which is provided. 
    I'll locate that position paper and send to you. 
    Ann

    Sent from my iPhone
    On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:14 AM, CDI Talk <cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com> wrote:






    This isn’t considered leading since ulcer is not documented

     

     
    <image001.jpg>

    Dawn M. Vitalone, RN, CCDS

    Clinical Documentation Improvement Specialist

    Community Hospital

    219-513-2611

    dvitalone@comhs.org

    CCDS_pin_1inch

     

    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]


    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:13 PM

    To: Dawn Vitalone

    Subject: Re: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

     

    Risk factor:ie immobility,dependent for care

    Clinical indicator- RN admit assessment indicated red sacral area

    Treatment- turn or q 2 hours,ion w meals with assist 

     

    Please clarify if above is consistent with:

    *Stage 1 pressure ulcer -post

    *Stage 1 pressure ulcer developed during stay

    *No evidence of pressure ulcer

    *Other

    *Unable to determine



    Sent from my iPhone



    On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:05 AM, CDI Talk <cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com> wrote:

    This message has no content.

     
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    --Apple-Mail-5209D159-9194-49C8-85A8-59AA5E202980--
  • Excerpt--A query should include the clinical indicators, as discussed above, and should not indicate the impact on reimbursement. A leading query is one that is not supported by the clinical elements in the health record and/or directs a provider to a specific diagnosis or procedure. **********The justification (i.e., inclusion of relevant clinical indicators) for the query is more important than the query format.

    http://library.ahima.org/xpedio/groups/public/documents/ahima/bok1_050018.hcsp?dDocName=bok1_050018

    It can be frustrating because the examples are SOOO obvious. And I think coding is USUALLY more comfortable with open- ended questions but, in a clinical person’s experience they may find their choices the reasonable choices.

    Different programs set up their queries differently based on their comfort level but if you give other and unable to determine they are NOT GIVEN ONLY ONE CHOICE…

    Good luck!

    Sent from my iPhone

    > On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:14 AM, CDI Talk wrote:
    >
    > This isn’t considered leading since ulcer is not documented
    >
    >
    > Dawn M. Vitalone, RN, CCDS
    > Clinical Documentation Improvement Specialist
    > Community Hospital
    > 219-513-2611
    > dvitalone@comhs.org
    >
    >
    > From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:13 PM
    > To: Dawn Vitalone
    > Subject: Re: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx
    >
    > Risk factor:ie immobility,dependent for care
    > Clinical indicator- RN admit assessment indicated red sacral area
    > Treatment- turn or q 2 hours,ion w meals with assist
    >
    > Please clarify if above is consistent with:
    > *Stage 1 pressure ulcer -post
    > *Stage 1 pressure ulcer developed during stay
    > *No evidence of pressure ulcer
    > *Other
    > *Unable to determine
    >
    > Sent from my iPhone
    >
    > On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:05 AM, CDI Talk wrote:
    >
    > This message has no content.
    >
    > ---
    > CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.
    >
    > You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: dvitalone@comhs.org
    > If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to
    > leave-cdi_talk-12121342.2ffcc42f203494f36544e53ea82f91d7@hcprotalk.com
    > ---
    > Copyright 2013
    > HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923
    > This message and attachment(s), if any, is intended for the sole use of the individual and/or entity of which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,confidential and prohibited from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or authorized to receive this on behalf of the addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone this message or any part thereof. If you have received this in error, please immediately advise the sender by e-mail and delete this information and all attachments from your computer and network. Thank you.
    >
    > ---
    > CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.
    >
    > You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: annnd2009@gmail.com
    > If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to
    > leave-cdi_talk-13089320.38a6920d4dbebb3c0272be2f9e77119e@hcprotalk.com
    > ---
    > Copyright 2013
    > HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    --Apple-Mail-CB2D22B8-D900-4F98-A584-8ECFEF940EF3
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    Excerpt--A query should include the clinical indicators, as discussed above, and should not indicate the impact on reimbursement. A leading query is one that is not supported by the clinical elements in the health record and/or directs a provider to a specific diagnosis or procedure. **********The justification (i.e., inclusion of relevant clinical indicators) for the query is more important than the query format.

    http://library.ahima.org/xpedio/groups/public/documents/ahima/bok1_050018.hcsp?dDocName=bok1_050018

     

    It can be frustrating because the examples are SOOO obvious. And I think coding is USUALLY more comfortable with open- ended questions but, in a clinical person’s experience they may find their choices the reasonable choices.

     

    Different programs set up their queries differently based on their comfort level but if you give other and unable to determine they are NOT GIVEN ONLY ONE CHOICE…

     

    Good luck!

    Sent from my iPhone
    On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:14 AM, CDI Talk <cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com> wrote:






    This isn’t considered leading since ulcer is not documented

     

     
    https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRU-EgfxDFa9fzS--pfBkaCV5MlVEkmeOy8e4W_BHciawQXHPXw

    Dawn M. Vitalone, RN, CCDS

    Clinical Documentation Improvement Specialist

    Community Hospital

    219-513-2611

    dvitalone@comhs.org

    <image002.jpg>

     

    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]


    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 12:13 PM

    To: Dawn Vitalone

    Subject: Re: [cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

     

    Risk factor:ie immobility,dependent for care

    Clinical indicator- RN admit assessment indicated red sacral area

    Treatment- turn or q 2 hours,ion w meals with assist 

     

    Please clarify if above is consistent with:

    *Stage 1 pressure ulcer -post

    *Stage 1 pressure ulcer developed during stay

    *No evidence of pressure ulcer

    *Other

    *Unable to determine



    Sent from my iPhone



    On Jun 17, 2015, at 10:05 AM, CDI Talk <cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com> wrote:

    This message has no content.

     
                   ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.
     
    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: dvitalone@comhs.org
    If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to
    leave-cdi_talk-12121342.2ffcc42f203494f36544e53ea82f91d7@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    This message and attachment(s), if any, is intended for the sole use of the individual and/or entity
    of which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,confidential and prohibited
    from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or authorized to receive this on
    behalf of the addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose or distribute
    to anyone this message or any part thereof. If you have received this in error, please immediately advise
    the sender by e-mail and delete this information and all attachments from your computer and network.
    Thank you.

    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: annnd2009@gmail.com
    If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to
    leave-cdi_talk-13089320.38a6920d4dbebb3c0272be2f9e77119e@hcprotalk.com
    ---
    Copyright 2013
    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923



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  • As Sarah noted, there can be many reasons for a reddened sacrum other than a stage I pressure ulcer. Pointing a physician toward a singular diagnosis to the exclusion of other options when there is no documentation of anything other than redness feels very leading to me. For me, adding 'other' and 'unable to determine' does not change that. What is the nursing protocol for documentation of skin issues? Some facilities do not allow their nurses to document or stage ulcers, but only to document objective findings. In that case I would definitely want the doctor to flip the patient over themselves and take a peek at their backside. I think I would create an open-ended query that asks the physician if there is an associated diagnosis to account for the findings.

    In addition, my concerns would include whether a doctor would order a wound care consult for a suspected stage I (times may have changed since I was a bedside nurse), and what the appropriate CDI intervention should be for facilities that do not have a wound care team.

    Renee

    Linda Renee Brown, RN, MA, CCDS, CCS, CDIP
    Director, Clinical Documentation
    Tanner Health System
  • Thank you Renee and everyone else. This is something that is going to get addressed now that we have access to the APR-DRG grouper.


    Dawn


    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 1:21 PM
    Subject: Re:[cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    As Sarah noted, there can be many reasons for a reddened sacrum other than a stage I pressure ulcer. Pointing a physician toward a singular diagnosis to the exclusion of other options when there is no documentation of anything other than redness feels very leading to me. For me, adding 'other' and 'unable to determine' does not change that. What is the nursing protocol for documentation of skin issues? Some facilities do not allow their nurses to document or stage ulcers, but only to document objective findings. In that case I would definitely want the doctor to flip the patient over themselves and take a peek at their backside. I think I would create an open-ended query that asks the physician if there is an associated diagnosis to account for the findings.

    In addition, my concerns would include whether a doctor would order a wound care consult for a suspected stage I (times may have changed since I was a bedside nurse), and what the appropriate CDI intervention should be for facilities that do not have a wound care team.

    Renee

    Linda Renee Brown, RN, MA, CCDS, CCS, CDIP Director, Clinical Documentation Tanner Health System
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  • Reading all of the responses, I feel fortunate that, in a query, I can refer to a Wound Care RNs note, which does stage any pressure ulcer, asking the MD to comment and indicate the clinical significance. (Confirm, Rule Out, State Unable to Determine, Other).

    Similar to nutritional status, I feel this is a very nuanced area. I find that often the physicians defer to expertise of the WC RN for related conditions/diagnoses.



    Paul Evans, RHIA, CCS, CCS-P, CCDS
     
    Manager, Regional Clinical Documentation & Coding Integrity
    Sutter West Bay
    633 Folsom St., 7th Floor, Office 7-044
    San Francisco, CA 94107
    Cell:  415.412.9421

    evanspx@sutterhealth.org



    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 11:24 AM
    To: Evans, Paul
    Subject: RE: Re:[cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    Thank you Renee and everyone else. This is something that is going to get addressed now that we have access to the APR-DRG grouper.


    Dawn


    -----Original Message-----
    From: CDI Talk [mailto:cdi_talk@hcprotalk.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2015 1:21 PM
    Subject: Re:[cdi_talk] Reddness to coccyx

    As Sarah noted, there can be many reasons for a reddened sacrum other than a stage I pressure ulcer. Pointing a physician toward a singular diagnosis to the exclusion of other options when there is no documentation of anything other than redness feels very leading to me. For me, adding 'other' and 'unable to determine' does not change that. What is the nursing protocol for documentation of skin issues? Some facilities do not allow their nurses to document or stage ulcers, but only to document objective findings. In that case I would definitely want the doctor to flip the patient over themselves and take a peek at their backside. I think I would create an open-ended query that asks the physician if there is an associated diagnosis to account for the findings.

    In addition, my concerns would include whether a doctor would order a wound care consult for a suspected stage I (times may have changed since I was a bedside nurse), and what the appropriate CDI intervention should be for facilities that do not have a wound care team.

    Renee

    Linda Renee Brown, RN, MA, CCDS, CCS, CDIP Director, Clinical Documentation Tanner Health System
    ---
    CDI Talk is offered for networking purposes. For official rules and regulations related to documentation and coding, please refer to your regulatory source.

    You are receiving this message as a member of CDI Talk as: dvitalone@comhs.org If you would like to be removed from CDI Talk, please send a blank email to leave-cdi_talk-12121342.2ffcc42f203494f36544e53ea82f91d7@hcprotalk.com
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    HCPro, Inc., 75 Sylvan Street, Danvers MA 01923

    This message and attachment(s), if any, is intended for the sole use of the individual and/or entity of which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged,confidential and prohibited from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or authorized to receive this on behalf of the addressee, you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose or distribute to anyone this message or any part thereof. If you have received this in error, please immediately advise the sender by e-mail and delete this information and all attachments from your computer and network.
    Thank you.

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    leave-cdi_talk-12940161.4b24e9352adc7dfa247d8332246d4e2a@hcprotalk.com
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  • edited April 2016
    Just list the other SUSPECTED REASON. If that is the only reasonable choice with the clinical factors as you know it. I do not think its leading.

    In the end you have to feel comfortable defending it. Unless something known and not listed. I'd feel very comfortable defending... Ask yourself what do you as the surveyor of the record suspect to be a reasonable cause?

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